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	<title>Comments on: Old Crow from the archives</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/</link>
	<description>The idle musings of John B</description>
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		<title>By: John B</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97185</link>
		<dc:creator>John B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97185</guid>
		<description>The point isn&#039;t so much the ticket windows, as the train driving and signalling - the skilled manual work, much of which will be eliminated within 20 years, much of which doesn&#039;t need to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point isn&#8217;t so much the ticket windows, as the train driving and signalling &#8211; the skilled manual work, much of which will be eliminated within 20 years, much of which doesn&#8217;t need to be.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97170</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97170</guid>
		<description>The &quot;shoddy&quot; aspect of Bob Crow&#039;s behaviour appears to be that future generations of LT employees will not enjoy the same good jobs which exist today, but which ex hypothesi wouldn&#039;t exist anyway today if it weren&#039;t for the efforts of Bob Crow.

I&#039;m not really seeing this alternate reality in which twenty years from now there are lots of jobs behind ticket windows (and *good* jobs as well, just not quite as good as current LT employees have it).  I&#039;m not sure it would be a good idea if it were possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;shoddy&#8221; aspect of Bob Crow&#8217;s behaviour appears to be that future generations of LT employees will not enjoy the same good jobs which exist today, but which ex hypothesi wouldn&#8217;t exist anyway today if it weren&#8217;t for the efforts of Bob Crow.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not really seeing this alternate reality in which twenty years from now there are lots of jobs behind ticket windows (and *good* jobs as well, just not quite as good as current LT employees have it).  I&#8217;m not sure it would be a good idea if it were possible.</p>
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		<title>By: John B</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97129</link>
		<dc:creator>John B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97129</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a &quot;remembered from management textbook&quot; &quot;fact&quot; so may be wrong, but I&#039;ve definitely been told by Serious Credible People that French factories are more automated than Japanese or German ones - ie the French ones use robots to replace skilled workers, while the Japanese and German ones use high-tech machine tools operated by skilled workers. I&#039;ll dig around in the literature and see if I can find anyone serious making the same claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a &#8220;remembered from management textbook&#8221; &#8220;fact&#8221; so may be wrong, but I&#8217;ve definitely been told by Serious Credible People that French factories are more automated than Japanese or German ones &#8211; ie the French ones use robots to replace skilled workers, while the Japanese and German ones use high-tech machine tools operated by skilled workers. I&#8217;ll dig around in the literature and see if I can find anyone serious making the same claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Edmund</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97123</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97123</guid>
		<description>Sorry, link contains extra quotation mark - I&#039;ll try again.

http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oica-depliant-final.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, link contains extra quotation mark &#8211; I&#8217;ll try again.</p>
<p><a href="http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oica-depliant-final.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oica-depliant-final.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Edmund</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97122</link>
		<dc:creator>Edmund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97122</guid>
		<description>John, you write

“(it’s not a coincidence that France’s manufacturing industry is far more automated than Japan’s)”

Are you sure about that? I don’t know much about the Japanese auto industry, but &lt;a href=&quot;//oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oica-depliant-final.pdf”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; claims that in 2004, Japan produced 10,799,659 vehicles with 750,000 employees (including supply chain), whereas France produced 3,549,008 vehicles with 304,000 workers (including supply chain). I would have though the increase in Japanese productivity (14 vs. 12 vehicles per worker) was associated with a higher level of automation in Japan. Or have I missed something?

Further, you write:

“British union leaders traditionally behaved like Crow. As a result of this antagonistic relationship, companies sought to replace their workforce with machines, foreigners employed abroad, and foreigners employed here. As a result of that, although plenty of British-designed goods are still manufactured, many by British companies and quite a few in the UK, manufacturing employment is at its lowest since the Industrial Revolution. And so is union membership…
Meanwhile in Germany, union leaders have traditionally behaved like the ‘knighthood-chasers’, working co-operatively with companies to maximise efficiency and share the benefits. As a result, Germany still has a great deal of highly skilled domestic manufacturing industry employing a great many people.”
It seems to me this is the other way round: independently of union behaviour, companies are going to go for increased automation and increased productivity. 

[I am not an economist, so if what I&#039;ve written above is just stupid, please just ignore it]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, you write</p>
<p>“(it’s not a coincidence that France’s manufacturing industry is far more automated than Japan’s)”</p>
<p>Are you sure about that? I don’t know much about the Japanese auto industry, but <a href="//oica.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/oica-depliant-final.pdf”" rel="nofollow">this</a> claims that in 2004, Japan produced 10,799,659 vehicles with 750,000 employees (including supply chain), whereas France produced 3,549,008 vehicles with 304,000 workers (including supply chain). I would have though the increase in Japanese productivity (14 vs. 12 vehicles per worker) was associated with a higher level of automation in Japan. Or have I missed something?</p>
<p>Further, you write:</p>
<p>“British union leaders traditionally behaved like Crow. As a result of this antagonistic relationship, companies sought to replace their workforce with machines, foreigners employed abroad, and foreigners employed here. As a result of that, although plenty of British-designed goods are still manufactured, many by British companies and quite a few in the UK, manufacturing employment is at its lowest since the Industrial Revolution. And so is union membership…<br />
Meanwhile in Germany, union leaders have traditionally behaved like the ‘knighthood-chasers’, working co-operatively with companies to maximise efficiency and share the benefits. As a result, Germany still has a great deal of highly skilled domestic manufacturing industry employing a great many people.”<br />
It seems to me this is the other way round: independently of union behaviour, companies are going to go for increased automation and increased productivity. </p>
<p>[I am not an economist, so if what I've written above is just stupid, please just ignore it]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/comment-page-1/#comment-97079</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johnband.org/blog/2009/06/11/old-crow-from-the-archives/#comment-97079</guid>
		<description>&quot;Meanwhile in Germany, union leaders have traditionally behaved like the ‘knighthood-chasers’, working co-operatively with companies to maximise efficiency and share the benefits. As a result, Germany still has a great deal of highly skilled domestic manufacturing industry employing a great many people.&quot;

Odd to read pre-credit crunch stuff like this - obviously German industry is suffering more partly because they had more left to lose.

I understand from asking around that ASLEF have successfully negotiated Boris/TfL down from the five year deal (sort of a medium-term no strike agreement) to a two year deal without apparent difficulties or threatening strikes.  Boris still hasn&#039;t met them, though, which means he&#039;s talking bollocks about the only block to talking to the unions being strike action - clearly he doesn&#039;t feel it&#039;s worth his time talking to them either way.  

Of course, ASLEF disliked the RMT anyway, and presumably Crow&#039;s efforts won&#039;t help this, as from ASLEF&#039;s point of view they were on their way to getting what they wanted without a fuss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Meanwhile in Germany, union leaders have traditionally behaved like the ‘knighthood-chasers’, working co-operatively with companies to maximise efficiency and share the benefits. As a result, Germany still has a great deal of highly skilled domestic manufacturing industry employing a great many people.&#8221;</p>
<p>Odd to read pre-credit crunch stuff like this &#8211; obviously German industry is suffering more partly because they had more left to lose.</p>
<p>I understand from asking around that ASLEF have successfully negotiated Boris/TfL down from the five year deal (sort of a medium-term no strike agreement) to a two year deal without apparent difficulties or threatening strikes.  Boris still hasn&#8217;t met them, though, which means he&#8217;s talking bollocks about the only block to talking to the unions being strike action &#8211; clearly he doesn&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s worth his time talking to them either way.  </p>
<p>Of course, ASLEF disliked the RMT anyway, and presumably Crow&#8217;s efforts won&#8217;t help this, as from ASLEF&#8217;s point of view they were on their way to getting what they wanted without a fuss.</p>
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